Sin and Forgiveness
.... "And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."
(Matthew 6:12)
.... "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
(1 John 1:9)
.... God will not only forgive us but, if we are attentive enough to perceive it, we will find ourselves receiving solace, encouragement, counsel and grace (or empowerment) for the purpose of restoring our fellowship with Him, and to help us do better the next time. It is His goodness that leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4). .... Just as God forgives us, He expects us to forgive others. This is a Christ-like attitude at the very heart of what He wants to do in our lives, in making us like Jesus as we walk with Him:
.... "bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do."
(Colossians 3:13)
.
.... Here you are, having a prayer meeting with God Himself, and He has come to this point on the agenda. So if an issue of unforgiveness toward others exists in your life, He’s not going to let you skip it. Sure, you're sensitive about it. But if you try to duck the issue and avoid the subject, He's likely to become suddenly firm with you – and beyond any doubt you’re not going to find this enjoyable. And don’t think it will stop when the prayer is over. In His own gentle but firm way He will pursue you on this issue until you deal with it properly. And if the situation warrants, He may even begin to punish you in the meantime (Matthew 18:28-35)..
To proceed to the next lesson, click here.... "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."
(Matthew 5:44-45,48)
Daily Bible Reading: Acts 24
posted by loren at 12:15 AM
11 Comments:
Loren, I'm reading your post and thinking about the amazing working of the character of God in forgiveness.
In forgiveness their is freedom, because we are entrusting God with justice and not taking control of that ourselves. Entrusting God with justice is a very freeing thing.
I have also thought that forgiveness is a journey not an event. Maybe this is why Paul said "I die daily". We die to our own wills daily and embrace the will of Him who gave Himself for us.
I've looked at the discipleship pages and you've done a great job. That doesn't surprise me though. God has always put upon you a spirit of excellence in what you do.
By
Berry, at 10/12/2005 1:09 AM
Loren,
Thank you for doing this in a series. I have enjoyed it
By
Shawn, at 10/12/2005 10:04 AM
Hi Berry,
I love what you said about forgiveness entrusting God with justice. That really is the bottom line, isn't it? That's a great thought!
Good to hear from you again! Starting a new business sure eats up time.
By
loren, at 10/12/2005 3:05 PM
I've asked God to forgive me. And that's what He did.
Now I thank Him, rather then continue to ask.
Why?
There is no biblical evidence that anyone requested forgiveness after the cross. No sinner. No saint.
People use 1 John 1:9 as the protestent confessional, but yet even there ... there is no requesting forgiveness. Only confession.
My confession is with thanksgiving, because Jesus said "It is finished." And I believe Him.
Now, we can forgive AS he forgave us ... by likewise not requiring that everyone jump through hoops to get our forgiveness. We can do it as spontaneous as He did it for us.
By
GraceHead, at 10/12/2005 4:20 PM
Hi Trent,
Thanks for your comments. Actually, I've heard that argument but I really don't agree with it. Jesus, for example, told us to pray for forgiveness as often as we pray (Matt 6:12). And He even made our forgiveness conditional on our extending forgiveness to others.
As another example, Simon the sorcerer believed but later made a terrible error. Simon Peter answered:
"Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you."
(Acts 8:22)
I do understand the concept behind that belief, that Jesus has already paid for our forgiveness, and of course that is true. But it has an undercurrent that has always troubled me:
If I came up to my dad, held out my hand and said, 'Dad, I thank you for the $5 you're about to give me' -- wouldn't that seem rather presumptuous and rude of me? So why would we relate that way to God?
I was answered that this would be acceptable if the arrangement had been made prior to this. My answer is that I want a relationship with God, not just an arrangement. And I think that's what He wants, too.
I do also agree with your point, that we are able to forgive because Christ forgave us. It is this Christlike quality of His life that shines through us, that we may forgive others so freely.
By
loren, at 10/12/2005 4:44 PM
Loren,
It has been said (and I agree) that you don't rule your believing; your believing rules you.
So, if I convince you that a hungry bear is outside waiting to eat you, and you believe me and make up your mind to never go outside, then because you believe it ... it is AS IF that is true ... whether it is fiction or truth that a bear is outside.
Here is the problem when it comes to believing that you must ask to be forgiven in order for you to be forgiven ... believing THAT makes it true for you in a real experiential way. When you work for what you have, it is AS IF you do not have it. And those that are hard at work trying to gain forgiveness ... it is AS IF they lack forgiveness ... even if they do not.
Here is a clue from the Bible: There is not a single person (neither sinner nor saint) that has been recorded ASKING for forgiveness after the death of Christ on the cross. Nobody at all ... yet this belief is central to many mainstream denominations. WHY? This false teaching is imprisoning people, and making a false notion AS IF it were true for them.
Or to put it simply:
"Thank you" is the language of faith.
"Please" is the language of distrust.
By
GraceHead, at 10/13/2005 12:49 PM
Hi Trent,
I see your point, but I still have to disagree with it. Your analogy has truth in it, but it simply doesn't apply to this situation (askig God for forgiveness). But on the other hand I gave scriptural examples of Christians being instructed to ask for forgiveness, both before and after the cross. Why would this change? Where are the Scriptures that say it has changed? Why would Jesus teach it if He knew it was about to change? (In fact, in strictly practical terms, it never would have been true). Heaven and earth will pass away, but His words remain forever.
I think that in this case, 'thank you' is the language of presumption, and 'please' is the language of appeciation, accountability to God, and respect for what He has done. It is also the humble attitude a sinner should have.
But let's take this further with the principle you've presented, and we'll see that some additional difficulties arise. If I sin and I only have to say 'thank you', then essentially I have been given a license to sin without giving an account. I fully realize this is not your intention, but under the logic of the position, there is no denying that it could still be true.
If the forgiveness is given in advance, can I give my thanks in advance and sin all I want?
Also, to reiterate a point from my previous comment, through the principle you've presented, a relationship with God is replaced by an arrangement with Him - and pretty much an absentee arrangement at that.
Actually, I have a background that is probably very similar to yours. I've been in churches that teach similar things. I think they've adopted a mind set over the broader subject of faith that leads to teachings such as this.
By the end of this month we'll be completing this module on prayer, and our next module will be on faith and grace. I will address that broader mindset there. But in the meantime, please think about this:
How much of your beliefs depend on your own initiative? God said it and I believe it so I act on it -- but did you connect with God in living terms? Did you pray? Were you led by the Spirit? If not, that's a problem. If not, you're not acting as one of His children (Rom 8:14). It's an absentee arrangement rather than a relationship -- it's religion -- it's man made, not God made.
You have implied that the main stream denominations seek to imprison people by telling them to seek God for forgiveness. You imply an self-serving agenda as their motivation, over which I invite you to elaborate. But in truth, I think it sounds much more like imprisonment to teach them that their bonds are unreal, and they are okay the way they are. It's like teaching them there's no such thing as the devil, so don't worry about it. It simply allows the damage to go unchecked.
Trent, you've made your case on the statement that no one actually asked God for forgiveness after the cross. This is called an argument based on silence, which is a well-know fallacy. If I may point out in return, no one ever 'thanked' God for forgiveness without asking -- either before or after the cross. You've given analogies, but you still have not presented a Scriptural case.
Let's also open this discussion to the others here, to see their thoughts. Anyone?
By
loren, at 10/13/2005 1:57 PM
Acts 8:22 is an example of something that Peter said to Simon ... however he did NOT instruct Simon to ask for forgiveness.
You have posited some meaning that isn't even present to that passage. You said, """Christians being instructed to ask for forgiveness, both before and after the cross."""
That is patently, untrue.
Pride wears many masks, and one of the masks that pride wears is the mask that says, that WE initiate, and god responds. He is our heavenly computer, and if we command him, god will do as we ask. This is the pennicle of presumption.
Colossians 1:14
"in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. "
Loren 1:14
"in whom we ask to get forgiveness of sins."
Ephesians 1:7
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace"
Loren 1:7
"In prayer we get redemption through our asking, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with our ability to remember them all."
Hebrews 9:22
"... without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
Loren 9:22
"... without the begging of saints there is no forgiveness."
Don't you see how this distorts the Gospel?
None of us were there to ask for Jesus to die. He shed His blood on our behalf, before we were born, and though NOBODY asked Him to. That event changed forever forgiveness.
1 John 2
"... But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
We have ONE who speaks to the Father in our defense! Guess who that is? Well, don't just guess. It says it right there, and it ISN'T YOU.
it goes on to say this: "Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."
He speaks for NOT ONLY OUR SINS. He is the sacrifice for NOT ONLY OUR SINS. He died for NOT ONLY OUR SINS. But, "for the sins of the whole world."
And we know that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. So, don't think that it is asking that facilitates forgiveness. You are not just asking for a pardon. You are requestion for MORE BLOOD to be shed, as if His sacrifice was not enough.
For there to be any new forgiveness, there MUST be more shedding of blood. So, why do you treat the sacrifice that He made and said "it is finished" as an unholy thing ... inadequate and thus you need more?
Why can't you trust it and say "thank you?" Why distrust it and say "please send more?"
Just before Jesus died, He did something amazing. He washed the disciples feet. That is a humiliating gesture. And nobody would have dared asking Jesus to do it, as even to ask would be a great humiliation. We don't read that they sat around and said, "Hey Jesus, why don't you get up and wash our feet." But that is what He did. BY HIS OWN INITIATION, over and against their objections for Him to stop. Now, if that is humiliating, then think about what He accomplished on the cross. That was TRUE humiliation and nobody dare asked for that either! He did that by his own initiation as well, and the consequense was the attoning sacrifice for not only our sins but for the sins of the entire world ... and still without our asking ... he speaks on our defense to the Father, whenever/ ifever we sin.
What someone is asking when they ask for forgiveness, is for more blood ... more sacrifice then what was already done ... and what Jesus said "is finished." He sits down because He is finished ... and nobody that says we HAVE forgiveness is on thin ice or shaky ground. It is truly exactly what we have in Him!
Those that are on thin ice and shaky ground are those that say we need more ... more then what was already done. We need new forgiveness, and we need to stand up and ask Him to deliver it to us.
That is shear unbelief, and it has ZERO scriptural support.
By
GraceHead, at 10/14/2005 12:18 PM
Hi Trent,
As I said in my last comment, I have a background that is very similar to yours, so I understand what you’re feeling. I have challenged one of your beloved teachers, who taught you this belief, and so you are offended, and have reacted defensively:
“Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth?” (and this is the truth:) “They zealously court you, but for no good; yes, they want to exclude you, that you may be zealous for them.” . . . as you are doing this day.
(Gal 4:16-17)
I accept that you are angry at me, and I’m not offended, because I know it’s not really the issue. It is to your Master that you stand or fall, and the real task of revealing truth belongs to Him, not me:
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.”
(John 14:26)
Since the Holy Spirit is going to bring to your remembrance the things Jesus said, this is what He’s going to show you in regard to our question, on whether we should ask for forgiveness in prayer. For Jesus did speak on this subject:
“In this manner, therefore, pray: our Father in heaven . . . forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors . . .”
(Matt 6:9-12)
Now Trent, Jesus Himself is saying this, and He is stating it plainly. But your teachers have woven a theo-philosophical argument that contradicts Him. I believe Jesus . . . but you don’t? Even on the surface, that has to speak to you very loudly. When you start excusing what Jesus said – where does it stop? (Psalm 11:3). There’s no telling how many other areas of your beliefs have been modified in a similar way. I humbly beseech you to consider the implications of your earthly loyalties to those men in light of your higher, ultimate and proper loyalty to Jesus Himself:
"For Moses truly said to the fathers, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'
(Acts 3:22-23)
Just to wrap this up, in your previous comment, you never answered the Scriptures I quoted. You almost seemed to be in denial of them. You also distorted by views rather acidly, which shows me how defensive you are feeling, because I am sure you do not normally share your faith in such tones (2 Tim 2:24-25). And the Scriptures you quoted do nothing to prove your point, you have subjectively read those implications into them.
Specifically, When Jesus said “it is finished.” He meant that everything that was supposed to be accomplished through the cross was finished. If that is not His meaning, was His resurrection unnecessary? Or did it accomplish nothing? Obviously more was accomplished through that (and even afterward) and this included the forgiveness of our sins (1 Cor 15:17).
Since I’m not taking this personally, I wish you wouldn’t either. It’s not about you and me, it is always about Jesus. So I am content to leave this in His hands.
By
loren, at 10/14/2005 2:39 PM
Zero anger. Zero offense.
You cannot offend me.
Nor have I been challenged.
Once again you are without a single scriptural support that anyone (sinner or saint) asked for forgiveness after the cross.
All you have is the Lord's prayer and the notion that the cross changed nothing about forgiveness, so what was said before the cross ... still applies. i.e. "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses." (Mark 11:26)
What if anything do you think that the crossed changed about forgiveness? Apparently very little if any.
Should be re-institute the day of attonement?
I think not.
I think alot changed about forgiveness ... as demonstrated in the passages that I have quoted ... and to which you have ignored.
I am not calling Jesus a liar. What He said is exactly correct. That is exactly how THEY should have prayed. But, I am not like THEY ARE, and neither is anyone else.
The cross changed everything.
""" in your previous comment, you never answered the Scriptures I quoted."""
The only passage you brought was dismissed as irrelevent. I asked for a biblical example of either a sinner or saint asking for forgiveness after the cross. You brought Acts 8:22 ... and that is not an example of what I was asking for.
Nice try, but all of this mandrake style of the power of suggestion is not a valid argument. Quit saying there is something there, when it is plainly not.
I wish that you would bring some kind of biblical substantiation, as I have, or retract the assertion.
As par usual, the antiquity of the belief and the popularity of the belief are the test of orthodoxy, rather then the scripture.
Please prove me wrong and come up with a single reference that supports the notion of anyone asking for forgiveness after the cross.
I won't hold my breath.
By
GraceHead, at 10/14/2005 4:12 PM
Hi Trent,
Very well, let’s go over this again:
you said:
”Once again you are without a single scriptural support that anyone (sinner or saint) asked for forgiveness after the cross.”
I answered with Acts 8:22:
"Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.”
(Acts 8:22)
Peter instructs the sorcerer to ask for forgiveness. Your counter argument, I suppose, is that the sorcerer was never actually shown to have prayed for forgiveness. You are therefore asking me believe that the sorcerer had it right, but Peter had it wrong? The problems with that ought to be obvious.
And as a purely practical matter, you are also setting a standard that none of Jesus’ words were valid unless sinners or saints (mere humans, either one,) could be show to act on them. But why would you think it’s up to mere men to validate the words of the Lord, and give them credence? As Paul would say: ”Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?” (Gal 3:3) Or why would you think that if we did not act on His words, they would fall? Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: "That You may be justified in Your words, and may overcome when You are judged." (Rom 3:4)
I pointed out that your model lacks an actual example as well. No one, sinner or saint, ever simply said ‘Thank you for forgiving me.’ instead of asking for forgiveness. So by your own standards, your belief is unfounded - and you were never able to answer this. Thus, as a reflection of your own conclusion, the novelty of your belief and the popularity of your teachers have become your orthodoxy, rather than the Scriptures.
For example, you said again:
”The only passage you brought was dismissed as irrelevent. I asked for a biblical example of either a sinner or saint asking for forgiveness after the cross. You brought Acts 8:22 ... and that is not an example of what I was asking for.
Who says this passage is irrelevant? It simply does not support your preferred interpretation, so you have dismissed it without reason - not even a bad reason. In your last comment, you said you would settle for a ‘notion’ of this truth. Brother, face it, you are simply in denial. With that as an introduction, let’s return to another point I mentioned earlier:
Your whole premise is called an argument based on silence, which is a well known fallacy. Saying that no one ever prayed for forgiveness doesn’t make it a fact -- it only means that as actual example of this was not recorded. In order to make your point, you must find a Scripture where someone was instructed not to ask for forgiveness, or to no longer do so. You must outrightly refute the evidence, not simply beg the point.
Therefore, when I show Peter instructing the sorcerer that he should ask for forgiveness, it undermines your premise, your opportunity for a refutation, and your whole approach. In the absence of an actual example of either position, we would go back to the instructions we were given in the matter. That brings me to the next point:
You said:
“All you have is the Lord's prayer.”
In saying this, you both acknowledge the Lord and dismiss Him in the same breath – and you are asking me to do the same? Trent, my job is to persuade others that Jesus is right. If I get that backwards and try to persuade God that men are right, I am no longer a servant of Christ (Gal 1:10). The point being, that this would also be true of you or anyone else, as well.
Maybe this will help resolve the difficulty you are seeing. You seem to be looking at things by an earthly time line, and you think things were different before and after the cross. But have you ever looked at it through God’s eyes?
The cross as we know it -- the event that took place in Jerusalem 2,000 years ago – was the earthly manifestation of an eternal truth that has always been established in the heavens (1 Peter 1:19,20; Rev 13:8). The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. This has always been the true source of forgiveness, even before Jesus was born, and of course afterward. And Jesus, knowing this eternal truth better than anyone, told us to pray for forgiveness as often as we prayed. They did it before the cross (ex: 2 Chr 6:20-39), and they did it after (Acts 8:22) and we were instructed to do so, too (Luke 11:2-4).
As ‘biblical substantiation’ you gave the following passages:
Colossians 1:14
"in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. "
Ephesians 1:7
"In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace"
Hebrews 9:22"... without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."
None of these passage say anything about simply thanking Him for forgiveness, and nothing in them conflicts with the instruction Jesus gave to ask for forgiveness when we pray. If you think they mean that asking Him isn't necessary, how would you use them to substantiate that thanking is?
1 John 2
"... But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."
Yes, Jesus does speak on our behalf, but He does so as our mediator (1 Tim 2:5). Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is only one – so who do you think is on the other end of that? (Gal 3:20). Obviously it’s the other party in the dispute, the sinner.
You said:
“it goes on to say this: "Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world."
Very true that Jesus died for everyone’s sins, even for people who will never repent. So why do you think some people end up in hell anyway? The answer is in the first Scriptures you quoted. It’s because they were not abiding in Christ. This means forgiveness is not automatic, one must come to Him and seek forgiveness. (By the way, you’re not a universalist, are you?)
You have also set up a straw-man in suggesting that asking for forgiveness when we pray is like requiring more blood, a further sacrifice of Christ, and re-institution of the day of atonement. The point, however, is that the blood of bulls and goats could never atone for our sins, but were only intended as a foreshadow of Christ, whose sacrifice in the heavens was eternal. If it is wrong to ask for forgiveness, it would always have been wrong; and if it was ever right, then it still is. There are not two, three of four versions of the covenant we make with Him. We are all saved in the same manner in Christ, including the disposition of our sins.
I hope this helps (not strife, not hurt, but helps.)
By
loren, at 10/14/2005 6:26 PM
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